Saturday, March 18, 2006
Should We Be Called "Pastor"?
Dear Friends,
As you may already know, God has been leading me to study and question some of the teachings found in the 2000 BFM and its predecessor, the 1963 BFM. Our church holds the 1963 version, not out of opposition to the 2000 revision, but just from never having been motivated to look at it! (Institutional apathy?)
In our church’s discipleship training class, we have been studying baptism in light of the 1963 BFM, and have raised the question, “Is baptism really a church ordinance?” If you’re interested, you are welcome to join the study at http://www.corinthbaptist.net/ .
This blog is dedicated to defining and promoting the work of the elder-bishop-overseer in the church. Previous posts have been walking through the New Testament’s teachings about what the elder is to pray for as he prays for his church, but I am going to put that on the back burner for a while in favor of a look at the title of “Pastor” in relation to the Baptist Faith and Message.
So here is my question: Should the men commonly called "pastor" in our churches be called “pastor”? In this article, let’s look to the Bible for guidance. Next time, we’ll consult our historical Baptist confessions.
Not being an accomplished Greek scholar, I study from the NIV, NASB, and KJV English translations, then consult the Greek when these do not agree, and for the precise meaning of important words. That will be the method in this article.
Does the New Testament call us “pastor”?
The only place that the English word “pastor” is used in the English translation of the New Testament is:
(Ephesians 4:11) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
This is the NIV rendering, but there is complete agreement on these terms among the English translations, because the Greek is not difficult here. The Greek word is poimen, which means “one who tends sheep” both literally and figuratively. Our English word “pastor,” taken from the Latin word pastum, “to feed,” also means “one who tends sheep” both literally and figuratively.
Some people look at this verse to supply the term “Pastor” for our church office. This is weak, however, because this is not a list of church offices. Baptists do not say that the offices in a church are Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, and Pastor-Teacher. This lists describes the roles people may assume or the gifts they may exhibit, but not the offices they may hold. Therefore this verse cannot be the basis for our use of the word “pastor” to describe an office in the church.
The word “pastor” is not used anywhere else in the English translations. The related word “shepherd” is used in other verses, though. Not counting the many times that it is used to refer to Jesus, or to actual shepherds who tend real sheep, the term is used in three verses:
(Acts 20:28) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (NIV)
(1 Peter 5:2) Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; (NIV)
(Jude 1:12) These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. (NIV)
Interestingly, however, the noun form is not used in these three verses. In Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 5:2, the apostles instruct certain men in the churches to shepherd the church. In Acts 20:28, the Greek word is poimainein, present active infinitive of purpose of poimaino, which means “to shepherd.” In 1 Peter 5:2, the Greek word is poimanate, first aorist active imperative of the same verb. The NASB conveys this in English by using the verb “to shepherd.” The KJV uses the verb “to feed,” which gives the main meaning of the Greek verb, but not the related ideas of “guide” and “guard,” which are also expressed in the verb. The Jude passage is not as relevant to our study as the others, since it is an indictment of false teachers, but even this verse uses a verb form of poimaino, not the noun poimen.
Jesus used this same verb and another when he spoke to Peter about this role in the church that was soon to be. In John 21:15, and 17, Jesus used the word boske, present active imperative form of bosko, an ancient word that means “to feed.” Verse 16 uses our friend poimaino again, in the present active imperative form poimaine.
(I realize that this account may be a Greek translation of words spoken to Peter in Aramaic. What else can we do but to use the Greek text?)
Where, then, is the New Testament basis for calling ourselves “pastor”? Jesus, Paul, and Peter all told us to tend our churches as a shepherd tends his sheep. But they never referred to the office of “pastor,” and in the New Testament record, they never referred to us as “the pastor.” Far from it, they never even used the noun “pastor” or “shepherd” to refer to us or our office.
What does the New Testament call us?
The Bible does refer to our office. Both Paul and Peter wrote on this matter. The most instructive passages are Acts 20:17-28, Titus 1:5-7, and 1 Peter 5:1-2. In all three passages, the apostles call the men in our office “elders” and “overseers” or “bishops.” Evidently these terms were used interchangeably by the apostles in referring to the same office.
The Greek word translated “elders” is presbuterous. This is a term borrowed from Jewish custom, especially the synagogue. It literally means “the aged,” but was used to refer to the leaders of families and communities, who also were the same class of men who lead the synagogues. This is the most-used term to refer to the office we hold as the church’s leaders and teachers. A simple word search for this term will yield several New Testament references to elders.
The Greek word translated “overseers” is episkopous. It is a word taken from business, and literally means “to oversee” and means also “to inspect.” In the Vulgate and the KJV, the word was not translated, but instead was carried over from the Greek. In the mutation from Greek to Latin to English, the term became “bishop.” (Write this out and have a look. You’ll see that the words are very similar.) Therefore there is no inherent difference for English-speakers between the terms “overseer” and “bishop.”
In addition to the definition of the terms, at least two points that may be significant strike the reader who studies these three passages.
First, the term “elder” occurs before "overseer" in each passage. Is it that they are commonly referred to that way more often than the other, or that the term “elder” occurs first to the mind of the author because of his Jewish mindset.
Second, the term “elder” has no inherent meaning as to function, while the term “overseer” does. That is to say, the term “elder” does not in itself give any clue as to what the man should do, while the term “overseer” does so.
Should we, then, be called, “pastor”? The Bible’s answer is, “No.” We should be called “elder” or “overseer” or “bishop.”
As you may already know, God has been leading me to study and question some of the teachings found in the 2000 BFM and its predecessor, the 1963 BFM. Our church holds the 1963 version, not out of opposition to the 2000 revision, but just from never having been motivated to look at it! (Institutional apathy?)
In our church’s discipleship training class, we have been studying baptism in light of the 1963 BFM, and have raised the question, “Is baptism really a church ordinance?” If you’re interested, you are welcome to join the study at http://www.corinthbaptist.net/ .
This blog is dedicated to defining and promoting the work of the elder-bishop-overseer in the church. Previous posts have been walking through the New Testament’s teachings about what the elder is to pray for as he prays for his church, but I am going to put that on the back burner for a while in favor of a look at the title of “Pastor” in relation to the Baptist Faith and Message.
So here is my question: Should the men commonly called "pastor" in our churches be called “pastor”? In this article, let’s look to the Bible for guidance. Next time, we’ll consult our historical Baptist confessions.
Not being an accomplished Greek scholar, I study from the NIV, NASB, and KJV English translations, then consult the Greek when these do not agree, and for the precise meaning of important words. That will be the method in this article.
Does the New Testament call us “pastor”?
The only place that the English word “pastor” is used in the English translation of the New Testament is:
(Ephesians 4:11) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
This is the NIV rendering, but there is complete agreement on these terms among the English translations, because the Greek is not difficult here. The Greek word is poimen, which means “one who tends sheep” both literally and figuratively. Our English word “pastor,” taken from the Latin word pastum, “to feed,” also means “one who tends sheep” both literally and figuratively.
Some people look at this verse to supply the term “Pastor” for our church office. This is weak, however, because this is not a list of church offices. Baptists do not say that the offices in a church are Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, and Pastor-Teacher. This lists describes the roles people may assume or the gifts they may exhibit, but not the offices they may hold. Therefore this verse cannot be the basis for our use of the word “pastor” to describe an office in the church.
The word “pastor” is not used anywhere else in the English translations. The related word “shepherd” is used in other verses, though. Not counting the many times that it is used to refer to Jesus, or to actual shepherds who tend real sheep, the term is used in three verses:
(Acts 20:28) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (NIV)
(1 Peter 5:2) Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; (NIV)
(Jude 1:12) These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. (NIV)
Interestingly, however, the noun form is not used in these three verses. In Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 5:2, the apostles instruct certain men in the churches to shepherd the church. In Acts 20:28, the Greek word is poimainein, present active infinitive of purpose of poimaino, which means “to shepherd.” In 1 Peter 5:2, the Greek word is poimanate, first aorist active imperative of the same verb. The NASB conveys this in English by using the verb “to shepherd.” The KJV uses the verb “to feed,” which gives the main meaning of the Greek verb, but not the related ideas of “guide” and “guard,” which are also expressed in the verb. The Jude passage is not as relevant to our study as the others, since it is an indictment of false teachers, but even this verse uses a verb form of poimaino, not the noun poimen.
Jesus used this same verb and another when he spoke to Peter about this role in the church that was soon to be. In John 21:15, and 17, Jesus used the word boske, present active imperative form of bosko, an ancient word that means “to feed.” Verse 16 uses our friend poimaino again, in the present active imperative form poimaine.
(I realize that this account may be a Greek translation of words spoken to Peter in Aramaic. What else can we do but to use the Greek text?)
Where, then, is the New Testament basis for calling ourselves “pastor”? Jesus, Paul, and Peter all told us to tend our churches as a shepherd tends his sheep. But they never referred to the office of “pastor,” and in the New Testament record, they never referred to us as “the pastor.” Far from it, they never even used the noun “pastor” or “shepherd” to refer to us or our office.
What does the New Testament call us?
The Bible does refer to our office. Both Paul and Peter wrote on this matter. The most instructive passages are Acts 20:17-28, Titus 1:5-7, and 1 Peter 5:1-2. In all three passages, the apostles call the men in our office “elders” and “overseers” or “bishops.” Evidently these terms were used interchangeably by the apostles in referring to the same office.
The Greek word translated “elders” is presbuterous. This is a term borrowed from Jewish custom, especially the synagogue. It literally means “the aged,” but was used to refer to the leaders of families and communities, who also were the same class of men who lead the synagogues. This is the most-used term to refer to the office we hold as the church’s leaders and teachers. A simple word search for this term will yield several New Testament references to elders.
The Greek word translated “overseers” is episkopous. It is a word taken from business, and literally means “to oversee” and means also “to inspect.” In the Vulgate and the KJV, the word was not translated, but instead was carried over from the Greek. In the mutation from Greek to Latin to English, the term became “bishop.” (Write this out and have a look. You’ll see that the words are very similar.) Therefore there is no inherent difference for English-speakers between the terms “overseer” and “bishop.”
In addition to the definition of the terms, at least two points that may be significant strike the reader who studies these three passages.
First, the term “elder” occurs before "overseer" in each passage. Is it that they are commonly referred to that way more often than the other, or that the term “elder” occurs first to the mind of the author because of his Jewish mindset.
Second, the term “elder” has no inherent meaning as to function, while the term “overseer” does. That is to say, the term “elder” does not in itself give any clue as to what the man should do, while the term “overseer” does so.
Should we, then, be called, “pastor”? The Bible’s answer is, “No.” We should be called “elder” or “overseer” or “bishop.”
Wow! Have so many of us been so wrong? Apparently so.
Next time, we’ll look at our historical Baptist confessions to see what they say about the title of our office.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you share your ideas.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Next time, we’ll look at our historical Baptist confessions to see what they say about the title of our office.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you share your ideas.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Comments:
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Jesus = The Great Shepherd / Great Pastor of The Church
Elders / Overseers = under-shepherds / Under-pastors of a local church.
I agree that I am an overseeing elder...that shepherd/pastors.
Though I hesitate to oppose your well-studied and carefully laid out argument...I'll have to say that I think calling an elder/overseer...Pastor as title is fine biblically as it's describing yet another aspect of what he's to do. An Elder oversees and pastors.
God bless you!
Elders / Overseers = under-shepherds / Under-pastors of a local church.
I agree that I am an overseeing elder...that shepherd/pastors.
Though I hesitate to oppose your well-studied and carefully laid out argument...I'll have to say that I think calling an elder/overseer...Pastor as title is fine biblically as it's describing yet another aspect of what he's to do. An Elder oversees and pastors.
God bless you!
Wow, I have not thought that a SB guy would challange traditional thought on this- GREAT! We have done a lot of harm by using the term pastor to describe all of our leaders. It would only take a moment of thought to realize that all of the leaders we call pastors do not have the patoral gift at all. And why should they? Great church leaders can also be teachers or administrators. In SB life we hire one guy and expect him to have all the gifts. Then we usually crucify him when he comes up short. Every leader is an Elder Biblically and every healthy church should have someone- even more than one someone exercising the pastoral gift. I need to stay annonymous for now but perhaps we can keep dialoguing on this.
# posted by 
: 8:24 AM
: 8:24 AM
Dear Anonymous,
I agree that most churches wrongly expect their pastors to have all personality traits, all character qualities, all ministry skills, and all spiritual gifts in complete perfection.
Where I don't agree with you is that not all elders are supposed to be pastors. Even if the person's gifts or personality or skills are not in the areas of home and hospital visits and the like, he is still commanded in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5 to tend the sheep like a shepherd. It's the same way with evangelism. Not every elder is a gifted evangelist, but all are still charged with the great commission, and with doing "the work of an evangelist" (2 Tim 4:5).
I am very glad to have people to dialogue with on these points.
What else are you thinking along these lines?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
I agree that most churches wrongly expect their pastors to have all personality traits, all character qualities, all ministry skills, and all spiritual gifts in complete perfection.
Where I don't agree with you is that not all elders are supposed to be pastors. Even if the person's gifts or personality or skills are not in the areas of home and hospital visits and the like, he is still commanded in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5 to tend the sheep like a shepherd. It's the same way with evangelism. Not every elder is a gifted evangelist, but all are still charged with the great commission, and with doing "the work of an evangelist" (2 Tim 4:5).
I am very glad to have people to dialogue with on these points.
What else are you thinking along these lines?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
The following I say just after reading what was said, I am not critisising anyone for I don't know anyone personally.
Should You call yourself Pastor?
NO, By going to some college to get a pastor certificate in Gods word this means nothing. He appoints those who he wants to be a pastor.
For example do you do this naturally before you were part of any organised church?
Love visiting peoples homes and love having people over to your house. In your conversation you naturally talk about the deeper things of Christ one on one with people. Can handle those people who are a pain in the neck and not get frustrated but continue to lift them up in the things of Christ.
If you answer a resounding Yes to the above you are the Lords Pastor he made you this way and appoints you to being a pastor weather you like it or not. Needless to say these people are rarely ever called a pastor nor do they make people call them pastor it is just who they are.
Do you do the following.
Get paid to give a sermon on Sunday. Council people who come to your office on appointment. Do administration duties in the church. Organise programs and little/cell groups. Have done a certificate/course in a bible college which allows you to put pastor infront of your name.
If you answer yes to the above you are not a pastor but a professional business organiser and social worker. Your occupation is found no where in scripture.
The men of the church should be preaching on Sunday not some man appointed pastor. One should bring a hymn Psalm spiritual song another the teaching of the word another a prophecy another an interpretation etc.
For example if I see someone naturally sowing the seeds of evangalism in their job on the street in the bus I would say. That person is an evangalist. But would they say that they are an evangalist? Usually not they would say I am just so happy to tell others about Jesus.
A God appointed pastor would say the same. I just love being with people in the Lord, I find it easy and love it.
Final Point:
I personally don't respect as much a speaker who is getting paid. My reason is this if they are getting paid then they have to say what their boss wants them to say (namely the pew sitters paying their way).
If they are not getting paid then they are free to preach the unhindered message and truth as it is in Jesus not man.
Should You call yourself Pastor?
NO, By going to some college to get a pastor certificate in Gods word this means nothing. He appoints those who he wants to be a pastor.
For example do you do this naturally before you were part of any organised church?
Love visiting peoples homes and love having people over to your house. In your conversation you naturally talk about the deeper things of Christ one on one with people. Can handle those people who are a pain in the neck and not get frustrated but continue to lift them up in the things of Christ.
If you answer a resounding Yes to the above you are the Lords Pastor he made you this way and appoints you to being a pastor weather you like it or not. Needless to say these people are rarely ever called a pastor nor do they make people call them pastor it is just who they are.
Do you do the following.
Get paid to give a sermon on Sunday. Council people who come to your office on appointment. Do administration duties in the church. Organise programs and little/cell groups. Have done a certificate/course in a bible college which allows you to put pastor infront of your name.
If you answer yes to the above you are not a pastor but a professional business organiser and social worker. Your occupation is found no where in scripture.
The men of the church should be preaching on Sunday not some man appointed pastor. One should bring a hymn Psalm spiritual song another the teaching of the word another a prophecy another an interpretation etc.
For example if I see someone naturally sowing the seeds of evangalism in their job on the street in the bus I would say. That person is an evangalist. But would they say that they are an evangalist? Usually not they would say I am just so happy to tell others about Jesus.
A God appointed pastor would say the same. I just love being with people in the Lord, I find it easy and love it.
Final Point:
I personally don't respect as much a speaker who is getting paid. My reason is this if they are getting paid then they have to say what their boss wants them to say (namely the pew sitters paying their way).
If they are not getting paid then they are free to preach the unhindered message and truth as it is in Jesus not man.
In the BF&M2000 it states that there are two offices: pastor and deacon.
I tend to agree with your study, these two offices as such do not appear. So many of us had to sign a document that simply goes beyond what the bible teaches on offices in the church. If you have got to have offices in the church, a stronger case could be made from I Cor.12:28 and the Eph.4:11-12 passage that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are offices. However, I agree that even these are not offices, but are functions/roles of servants who have been gifted by the Spirit to carry out these functions in the work of the church. I simply don't see any offices in the 1st century church. Varying giftings, yes! Two offices, no!
With all the evidence, why do we maintain the biblical church offices to be pastor and deacon?
--IMB M
I tend to agree with your study, these two offices as such do not appear. So many of us had to sign a document that simply goes beyond what the bible teaches on offices in the church. If you have got to have offices in the church, a stronger case could be made from I Cor.12:28 and the Eph.4:11-12 passage that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are offices. However, I agree that even these are not offices, but are functions/roles of servants who have been gifted by the Spirit to carry out these functions in the work of the church. I simply don't see any offices in the 1st century church. Varying giftings, yes! Two offices, no!
With all the evidence, why do we maintain the biblical church offices to be pastor and deacon?
--IMB M
# posted by : 1:28 PM
: 1:28 PM
Dear Anonymouse IMB M,
What an honor to have one of our M's visit this site and comment. Welcome! I am thankful for you and what you are doing.
I don't have any problem with stating that there are two offices. This seems to be right in line with Philippians 1:1 and 1 Timothy chapter 3. And one of the offices is definitely "deacon."
But the other office is "elder," "bishop," or "overseer," not "pastor.
Why do you think we shouldn't say there are two offices at all?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
What an honor to have one of our M's visit this site and comment. Welcome! I am thankful for you and what you are doing.
I don't have any problem with stating that there are two offices. This seems to be right in line with Philippians 1:1 and 1 Timothy chapter 3. And one of the offices is definitely "deacon."
But the other office is "elder," "bishop," or "overseer," not "pastor.
Why do you think we shouldn't say there are two offices at all?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
In our own church planting here in Guayaquil we choose to refer to those in leadership as simply "servants", or "servant-leaders". This seems to be the spirit of what New Testament leadership is all about. Christ's own admonition to his disciples was quite clear concerning this very matter (matt.20:25-28).
Titles have a way of going to people's heads (matt.20:21-24). With a title comes a degree of prestige and one begins to expect corresponding privileges. With these it becomes easy to assume we should have a certain degree of authority, and so on...Jesus example was quite the contrary as he commanded us to follow his example in washing each others feet (John 13).
This is really an interesting subject and one that we have had to struggle with to come to terms with. I don't claim to have all the answers, but do consider myself a "seeker of God's truth." I am open to correction--so fire away!--and know that anything shared will be given serious consideration.
Titles have a way of going to people's heads (matt.20:21-24). With a title comes a degree of prestige and one begins to expect corresponding privileges. With these it becomes easy to assume we should have a certain degree of authority, and so on...Jesus example was quite the contrary as he commanded us to follow his example in washing each others feet (John 13).
This is really an interesting subject and one that we have had to struggle with to come to terms with. I don't claim to have all the answers, but do consider myself a "seeker of God's truth." I am open to correction--so fire away!--and know that anything shared will be given serious consideration.
Dear Guy,
Thank you very much for giving this post a serious reading. I've enjoyed several of your comments on other blogs.
I agree that "servants" is a good way for a minister to refer to himself. Paul, Peter, James, and Jude all referred to themselves that way.
But how do you get away from the New Testament terms "elder," "bishop" or "overseer," and "deacon"? (I realize that the English word "deacon" is the same word used when the apostles refer to themselves as "servants.") When the church leaders are referred to in the New Testament in the context of the office they hold in the church, these terms are used.
What are the words for "servant," "elder," and "overseer" in the language of the people among whom your minister?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Thank you very much for giving this post a serious reading. I've enjoyed several of your comments on other blogs.
I agree that "servants" is a good way for a minister to refer to himself. Paul, Peter, James, and Jude all referred to themselves that way.
But how do you get away from the New Testament terms "elder," "bishop" or "overseer," and "deacon"? (I realize that the English word "deacon" is the same word used when the apostles refer to themselves as "servants.") When the church leaders are referred to in the New Testament in the context of the office they hold in the church, these terms are used.
What are the words for "servant," "elder," and "overseer" in the language of the people among whom your minister?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
JYR asks: But how do you get away from the New Testament terms "elder," "bishop" or "overseer," and "deacon"?
These servant functions are definitely needed and are a part of a NT church, along with several others mentioned in various passages such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, administrators, etc. I like to ask churches that I speak in if they can identify the apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and pastors in their midst? Most of the time they are silent, because what has been substituted for these various functions/roles of NT leadership is the modern office of "pastor" as we know it. A whole bundle of functions/roles and giftings rolled up into one office of "pastor." I seriously doubt the role of pastor we know today existed back in the first century. Does that mean that the common modern practice of having someone in the office of pastor is unbiblical? Of course not! It just seems to have evolved quite a bit over the years since the time of the first century.
I don't have any problem at all with church leadership, or with any of the terms you mention above. We too have them and they are practiced. My own personal quest is more along the lines of trying to understand what the NT actually teaches about church leadership and the various roles, functions and giftings described. The modern pastoral office seems to be a hybrid of several of the roles/functions/giftings that are described in the NT. It indeed takes a highly talented, gifted, educated, professional person to fill such a role. But is that multi-talented highly specialized position that only a few of us can hold the one ascribed to in the churches we see in the book of Acts and in Paul's epistles?
My reading of the 1Tim3 and Tit1 passages is that those ASPIRING to be an elder/overseer/bishop is that they have the character and testimony traits described by Paul. A high percentage of believers today fall under these parameters. Many more than are actually serving in the harvest fields. I believe it was Paul's intention that they be broad enough to ENCOURAGE as many as would aspire to the postion to do so. Lord knows we need many more laborers in the harvest than we currently have for the vast need out there!
On the mission field in planting new churches we have to be careful to not confuse Biblical leadership as seen in how these roles/giftings functioned, and what is expected of the office of pastor in say a typical Baptist church there in Bethany, OK. We'd find ourselves in a "pickle" if we had to come up with a highly trained, professional specialized individual for every church planted overseas. I just don't think this is what the NT is reffering to when it talks about elders, bishops, shepherds, overseers, etc.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not against theological education or excellence in training by any means. In fact we just had a reporter here to do a story on the kind of grassroots theological education we give our servant leaders and the high level of expectancy we have for those in leadership of new churches (see the June06 issue of the Commission magazine.)
But more important to us is the handle they have on the supernatural resources given to us by our Lord to carry out His mandates in the world:
-the Word,
-the Holy Spirit,
-prayer,
-faith,
-and the Gospel.
What are their spiritual gifts? Formal training even in the best of the SBC seminaries is no substitute for what we are describing above.
One other curiosity for me on this matter: If there are to be the two offices in the church, why does Paul only refer to them in the one Philippian letter (1:1) and does not address them in any of his other letters to the early churches he planted? If these two offices are so important to a NT church, why aren't they given more ink in Paul's writings? Other than the pastoral epistles which were addressed to Paul's co-laborers, and a closing greeting in Heb.13:24 these two offices aren't even mentioned in his writings.
Our conclusion on this matter have been that Paul expected ALL of the brothers to be active participants in the work of the church, not just the designated officers. That is why the epistles to the churches were written to the SAINTS and not addressed to the leadership like we tend to do today. Of course the leadership of those churches were part of the group of saints, but these elders (and possibly deacons) were not any more responsible for the matters being addressed than the entire church at large.
Our conclusions are that Paul was definitely a Baptist by the strong stance he took on the "priesthood of ALL the believers." Those taking a lower view of "priesthood of all believers" are not as Baptist as Paul was!
JYR asks: What are the words for "servant," "elder," and "overseer" in the language of the people among whom your minister?
There are Spanish equivalents to these words which pretty much mean the same as they do in English.
Thanks for some good dialogue. I repeat, we aren't saying we have the final word on these issues, but see ourselves as "seekers on a journey" in an on-going quest to really understand what NT leadership is supposed to look like. Thanks for helping us along in our journey!
These servant functions are definitely needed and are a part of a NT church, along with several others mentioned in various passages such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, administrators, etc. I like to ask churches that I speak in if they can identify the apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and pastors in their midst? Most of the time they are silent, because what has been substituted for these various functions/roles of NT leadership is the modern office of "pastor" as we know it. A whole bundle of functions/roles and giftings rolled up into one office of "pastor." I seriously doubt the role of pastor we know today existed back in the first century. Does that mean that the common modern practice of having someone in the office of pastor is unbiblical? Of course not! It just seems to have evolved quite a bit over the years since the time of the first century.
I don't have any problem at all with church leadership, or with any of the terms you mention above. We too have them and they are practiced. My own personal quest is more along the lines of trying to understand what the NT actually teaches about church leadership and the various roles, functions and giftings described. The modern pastoral office seems to be a hybrid of several of the roles/functions/giftings that are described in the NT. It indeed takes a highly talented, gifted, educated, professional person to fill such a role. But is that multi-talented highly specialized position that only a few of us can hold the one ascribed to in the churches we see in the book of Acts and in Paul's epistles?
My reading of the 1Tim3 and Tit1 passages is that those ASPIRING to be an elder/overseer/bishop is that they have the character and testimony traits described by Paul. A high percentage of believers today fall under these parameters. Many more than are actually serving in the harvest fields. I believe it was Paul's intention that they be broad enough to ENCOURAGE as many as would aspire to the postion to do so. Lord knows we need many more laborers in the harvest than we currently have for the vast need out there!
On the mission field in planting new churches we have to be careful to not confuse Biblical leadership as seen in how these roles/giftings functioned, and what is expected of the office of pastor in say a typical Baptist church there in Bethany, OK. We'd find ourselves in a "pickle" if we had to come up with a highly trained, professional specialized individual for every church planted overseas. I just don't think this is what the NT is reffering to when it talks about elders, bishops, shepherds, overseers, etc.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not against theological education or excellence in training by any means. In fact we just had a reporter here to do a story on the kind of grassroots theological education we give our servant leaders and the high level of expectancy we have for those in leadership of new churches (see the June06 issue of the Commission magazine.)
But more important to us is the handle they have on the supernatural resources given to us by our Lord to carry out His mandates in the world:
-the Word,
-the Holy Spirit,
-prayer,
-faith,
-and the Gospel.
What are their spiritual gifts? Formal training even in the best of the SBC seminaries is no substitute for what we are describing above.
One other curiosity for me on this matter: If there are to be the two offices in the church, why does Paul only refer to them in the one Philippian letter (1:1) and does not address them in any of his other letters to the early churches he planted? If these two offices are so important to a NT church, why aren't they given more ink in Paul's writings? Other than the pastoral epistles which were addressed to Paul's co-laborers, and a closing greeting in Heb.13:24 these two offices aren't even mentioned in his writings.
Our conclusion on this matter have been that Paul expected ALL of the brothers to be active participants in the work of the church, not just the designated officers. That is why the epistles to the churches were written to the SAINTS and not addressed to the leadership like we tend to do today. Of course the leadership of those churches were part of the group of saints, but these elders (and possibly deacons) were not any more responsible for the matters being addressed than the entire church at large.
Our conclusions are that Paul was definitely a Baptist by the strong stance he took on the "priesthood of ALL the believers." Those taking a lower view of "priesthood of all believers" are not as Baptist as Paul was!
JYR asks: What are the words for "servant," "elder," and "overseer" in the language of the people among whom your minister?
There are Spanish equivalents to these words which pretty much mean the same as they do in English.
Thanks for some good dialogue. I repeat, we aren't saying we have the final word on these issues, but see ourselves as "seekers on a journey" in an on-going quest to really understand what NT leadership is supposed to look like. Thanks for helping us along in our journey!
Dear Brother Guy,
I am sorry to have been so long in responding to your excellent comments.
You are definitely right that we have tended to type up all possible leadership gifts and functions into a job description for the pastor, then step back and watch him not be able to do it all. God gives several gifted leaders to churches, leaders with various gifts for the edification of the church.
I agree that there are more men in a church qualified to be elders than just the "senior pastor" and the other "ministers" or "pastors."
On the mission field, and in small churches or new church starts, I agree that the highly-trained professional minister is not available. In God's plan, neither is he needed! New converts who are maturing quickly in the faith can assumer roles of leadership with God's blessing.
True, the office of deacon is not mentioned many times in the New Testament, but the office of elder is mentioned a number of times, including very clear descriptions such as Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5. Paul left Titus in Crete for the purpose of ordaining elders in every town. Surely the New Testament shows the office of elder to be important for a church.
Love the discussion, Brother Guy. I pray for the best as you wrangle with these issues and the application on the mission field.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
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I am sorry to have been so long in responding to your excellent comments.
You are definitely right that we have tended to type up all possible leadership gifts and functions into a job description for the pastor, then step back and watch him not be able to do it all. God gives several gifted leaders to churches, leaders with various gifts for the edification of the church.
I agree that there are more men in a church qualified to be elders than just the "senior pastor" and the other "ministers" or "pastors."
On the mission field, and in small churches or new church starts, I agree that the highly-trained professional minister is not available. In God's plan, neither is he needed! New converts who are maturing quickly in the faith can assumer roles of leadership with God's blessing.
True, the office of deacon is not mentioned many times in the New Testament, but the office of elder is mentioned a number of times, including very clear descriptions such as Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5. Paul left Titus in Crete for the purpose of ordaining elders in every town. Surely the New Testament shows the office of elder to be important for a church.
Love the discussion, Brother Guy. I pray for the best as you wrangle with these issues and the application on the mission field.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
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